It’s Law – Episode 7: Best Practice on Presenting an Insurance Claim Sep 27, 2023

It’s Law – Episode 7: Best Practice on Presenting an Insurance Claim Sep 27, 2023

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Hello, and welcome to the It’s Law Podcast. Today is episode seven, and we’re going to be discussing the best practices of presenting an Insurance Claim. I’m Richie Edwards, associate at FR Law Group. and today with me to present and speak to us is Troy Froderman, one of the owners of principles here at FR Law Group. Troy, how you doing? Hey Richie thanks for hosting this. Absolutely. So today, we, as I said, we’re discussing how to present an insurance claim, and really, we think this is helpful to let people know that, you know, the way you talk to an insurance company and the things you tell them the way you present a claim can have a really big impact, not only on whether it’s accepted or denied but also on litigation if it becomes necessary in the future. So I think he wanted to start off talking a little bit about businesses and their risk management. Sure, so just like individuals, businesses have their own insurance portfolio and their kind of typical lines of policies that most companies have, such as a general liability policy, a business property policy,

maybe if they have a fleet, they’ll have a business auto policy. But then there are any number of different types of policies depending on the type of business that you’re in. So

what’s really important for businesses and this is both small, medium, and large, is to have a very good risk management plan in place. The risk management plan, helps to identify risks, helps to minimize risks, and also should be a proctor to management as to what types of insurance should they purchase for those risks, and what limits should they have, and etc. So, typically what will happen, especially with a large company, they’ll have really three different managerial types, who touch upon risk management and insurance. The Number One example is the Risk Manager or Risk Management Department. Makes sense, right? The second one would be the in-house Counsel Department. And then the third is really the decision makers and, in which most instances, would be Directors from the Board of Directors. But then you would also have what we call the C-suite areas, the CFO typically gets involved, that COO gets involved, normally, not the CEO, but

to the extent that that person is on the board, they obviously have some type of contact or connection with their insurance portfolio. And so I think the first thing that a company needs to do is, what is the biggest risks to our company? If you’re a farmer or a farmer conglomerate, obviously, weather conditions is an important element. Transportation costs is an important risk to take into account.

If you are in the banking arena, obviously, I think we’re seeing this every day is on Cyber Liability. Yeah.

One hack of a bank can lead to billions of dollars being at risks. Yeah, yeah. And so different types of businesses. If, your

self storage unit, your biggest risk is that there’s a fire, maybe theft is another risk. So, really what the Risk Management component is to define what is a risk to your revenue and to the viability of your operations. So, I want to ask a quick question there. You said, you know, identify your biggest risk. When you’re talking biggest risk, are we talking in terms of, you know, that would cause the most financial harm? The one that’s most likely to happen? How do we decide and categorize this is a big risk versus a small risk? Well, that’s going to be dependent on what your business is, right, okay? What your market is. Okay. If you’re in Phoenix, and you’re you have a business, your risk of a hurricane is nil.

If you’re in Miami, and you’re doing business, your risk of a hurricane is significant, right? So it depends on many factors. And when I say you’re biggest risks that’s putting out there, what is a bet the company risks that we have? Then there are other risks.

See that also have to be identified, right? Maybe they’re not the ones that are going to shutter the windows, but they’re going to have an economic impact on the company’s profitability, and their revenue stream, right. And so all of those get assessed, and then you have to determine, based on hitting the trees don’t grow to heaven. So

you can’t, you can’t insure every conceivable risk, right? There’s just not enough money to go around, right?

And businesses are in the business of making money. So

you had to make some hard decisions at times. And some of that is, maybe you can’t afford to insure that risk, but you’re gonna self-insure, here’s the company. And there are ways to do that. That’s different podcasts.

So once you’ve identified the various risks, then you meet with your insurance broker. And you talk about placement of policies to cover a variety of risks, right, and we want to identify risks before we meet with the broker because they don’t know the business like we do. Correct. Okay.

But there are some very good brokers that, you know, especially a lot of the national brokers, they just as in the medical field, in the legal field, they specialize. So

let’s say you’re, you’re a bakery, a large bakery, they’re gonna have somebody at one of these large Insurance Agencies, who that’s all they do is they deal with food product policies, and they were specifically designed policies, right for food products, right. Okay, as an example.

So once you’ve kind of shopped the market, and then you get your policies, and you have your coverage, then that is only as effective as your claim management is. Okay. So risks in claims have a direct correlation. Right. Risk management arises out of the fact that you have a store a history of some type of place, right? Yeah, something’s happened. So, you know, chicken and the egg process, right? Okay.

So it’s very, very important that you have, especially for larger businesses, but it’s true of any business, you have somebody who’s responsible for claims management. Oftentimes, again, as a Risk Manager, sometimes it’s in the CFO’s arena, right? Because it has a financial conveyor component to it, right? But however, that’s done, it’s really important that when a claim arises or loss arises, that’s not the first time you’re trying to figure out how we’re going to manage this. Right, right. You’ve looked at it a what are our risks? What are our hierarchy of risks? How are we going to insure? And then ideally, it sounds like you have thought about claims and evaluate claims before they happen. Right. So the part with the Seinfeld episode with because George Costanza, where he can’t remember if he’s an importer or an exporter. So if you’re an importer, and there’s a loss, at sea,

that shouldn’t be the first time that you’re trying to figure out, “Oh, no, what do we do?” You have a place, and you have a policy in place–Right– A plan of action to execute on. Right. And so that’s really the first instance of your claim. And you need to document the claim, as much as you can. Right. Memories fade in written format. Yes, emails, right, those sorts of things. And you should have a, your risk management plan should have a policy written policy in place, that if you follow it correctly, then when you submit the claim to the insurance company, there’s not a lot for that insurance company to do. Right. Now, they may want to interview witnesses and ask for backup documentation. But you’ve presented it in the best possible way for you to have coverage for the claim. Right. Right. And, and it sounds like there’s also things that you do sort of in the lead up to a claim almost preparing for a claim, we know something bad’s always going to happen. That sounds like it’s part of it too. Not just having the plan and putting in an action when when the you know, container falls off the ship, but doing taking steps to prepare for that inevitability. Yeah, so here’s a unique but a good example, I think. So let’s say that your company

ships grain from Mexico to the United States, okay. I don’t know why we would do that. Get a better example.

We’ll stick with grain.

And you know what?

There’s a risk of the Cartels

robbing the train, right, and taking the grain and selling it to a third party. And let’s say that the shipments

are revenue generators of about $500,000 per shipment. Okay. So

before any of that activity takes place, the risk management team will have looked at the risks and determined that that’s a substantial risk. Right. Because it’s happened for the other companies. There’s some lawlessness involved. So, what can we do to minimize our risk? Right? So there’s a line of policies called Trade Credit. Okay. And so what that policy ensures is if a client owes you $500,000, and there’s a risk that the Grain’s not going to make it, then that theoretically, the trade credit policy would cover that risk. Okay, interesting, right. So

another feature that policy, and this is just an example, but applies across the board, that what that policy does, it also should force the company to figure out better ways of obtaining the grain.

And also ensuring that they’re using the best possible methods to prevent that loss. Right. And so the premium for trade credit policy is expensive. Sure. So that forces management to say to whoever’s managing the risks, to say, alright, we’d rather not pay $500,000, we get one for $250,000. So, how do we shore up that risk? And so it just makes you act smarter and in a quicker in terms of trying to minimize that loss? Right. And these sorts of things to be, you know, act quick or minimize the loss? It seems that there are certain– in the policy, certain conditions precedent that you have to you have to meet and I’m not specifically familiar with trade credit policy like you said, but I can imagine one where they were shipping grain from Mexico to the United States has risk of cartels, you have to have security on board the train or something. It seems to me that making sure we meet conditions precedent should be part of how we prepare for and present a claim so that, you know, we don’t give the insurance company a basis for denial. Right. Correct, right. And another part of risk management is before you acquire the policy through your broker, the insurance application. Yeah.

It’s a kind of equated to

the practice of law in this sense. Lawyers are very careful and meticulous about written submissions to the court. Right. When it comes to sending an invoice to a client, I don’t think they really pay much attention to spelling or anything like that. Right. Okay. And I think the same is true for insurance applications, that

that policy that is basically going to be purchased. That’s the focus, not so much on the application. Right. And so, one area where we see quite a few denials by insurance carriers to a company’s notice of a claim is they’ll point to the application. Yeah, it will go back to the grain example, the application, did you have any type of losses abroad in the last five years? And the person who’s filling out the application may not know it, right? And may not think that what happened was a loss. So they write a check? No, no. Right. And so the carrier comes back on this notice of loss and says,

Let me see if you’ve had any prior losses, right? And then it goes up a different chain at the company. And that person says, oh, yeah, of course, we did. Three and a half years. And then the carousel, thank you. Your claim is denied. You lied to us. Right. You know, that brings to mind I just read about a case in Florida or something like that happened just really quickly. It wasn’t even like you’re saying it wasn’t a lie. The person who filled out the application the way that they read it, it was sort of subjective. And they thought, You know what, no, that’s I can answer no to this and move on and sign it. They did. They’re denied coverage on a $10 million claim, a building called an architect out of Florida, and I thought, wow, that’s to not have lied, and to be denied the $10 million average is really serious on the application. Yes, yeah. And to be frank, most managerial types in

words, don’t care about insurance until they need it. Of course, just say it’s a nuisance and it costs. Right. And so it’s at that time when they think, Well, gee, would have been nice if we check that thing differently. But who knows, you know, as you say, you know, it depends on who’s reading it. So, a good Risk Management program

has in place that the application is reviewed by the appropriate departments. Right. And you should have the Department Head check off on that portion of the application. Right. And then if something happens, and there’s a misstatement or misrepresentation, you know, they can’t blame it on some poor fool. It’s sitting in a cubicle. Right, yeah, take responsibility for what it was the company are putting out there. Yeah. So, it’s important for the application process. So once you’ve submitted the claim, the question is, who’s submitting it?

Companies view notice differently.

Some companies have their general counsel’s office send out the notice. Right, others have the Risk Management Department do it. Others have their Broker was not even inside the company, do it.

I think the better practice is to have the Risk Management folks do it. But there’s always that I don’t know why there is this

resistance for them to put the carriers on notice. They want the brokers to do it.

It’s not like it’s important. Right. It’s not like there’s anything that’s going to come back to them negatively. Right. Right. You said that notify anyway. It seems like maybe one of those things that’s stuck in tradition and I think so. I’m gonna do it. Right. Yeah. But you have to be careful because some

company insurance companies require that the notice come directly from the insured, and that notice from an agent or broker is not sufficient notice, right? Gonna give them reason to deny if they can, right? And so the notice, you know, besides who says it has to be carefully drafted, it should not be lengthy. It should cite to the policy number or cite to the policy.

You don’t have to say, you know, we’re covered because of X, Y, or Z that guys later, just say we’re putting you on notice of this loss. In this policy? Yes. Right. And the question is, when do you put them on notice, you put them on notice, when they’re sued, you put them on notice, at the time of the loss, do it sometime in between? And a lot of that’s governed by what the policy requires. Most policies require prompt notice or as soon as possible. And so I think the better practice is, as soon as the loss occurs, and you’ve got your arms wrapped around it, to go ahead and look at your lines of coverage and see who you need to put on notice. Right. And there’s the possibility, of course, that notice never turns into a full-face claim, you could figure it out or subcontractor could cover it, whatever, right? You’re doing that to protect yourself and maintain that right to a claim. Yeah, and there’s a bit of a catch-22 to it, because there’s a fear that put it by virtue of putting the insurance company on notice of a loss into a potential claim that that’s going to hurt their ratings and their premiums are going to go up the following year. Right. Right. Is there is there, you know, a school of thought on whether you couch the terms is this is a potential claim, whether you bring that up? Is there a right way to do that in the notice? Yes, it depends on what your objective is. I think the safest thing to do is to call it a claim. Right, okay. Potential if it’s not a claim yet a potential claim.

But if you have a letter from a third party or whomever saying that you’re liable as a result of this loss, you should send that letter to the insurance company. Some people want to treat it as a possible claim. The problem with that is

minds begin to wonder on a different issues. Right. If somebody comes up three months later and says, “Hey, that letter, they’ve actually now sued us. Well, that’s okay. We already put the carrier on those.” when No, You didn’t. You put them on notice of a potential. Right. And it’s turned into an actual suit. Right claim was Yeah, okay. And that I know this all sounds very simple.

But we deal with this almost every day, right? Yeah. Yeah, we certainly do. We certainly have things every day that happened in the claim process that could have been done better.

or maybe would have led to it right. Everyone’s an expert after the fact.

That’s true. So when we’re talking about the claim process, the notice of claim, and you mentioned you think the best practice is your risk management department division. Is there a reason for that is my first question. And the second, is there a type of training you would recommend for that department on making the actual notices and then making the claims? Yeah, well, the answer to the first question is, because that’s their job.

Be crass about it. Sure. The Risk Management, right, that’s what they do. Right? No one should know anything about those policies better than Risk Management. Yeah. Here’s something that I always hear the question. But yeah, here’s something that’s really strange. So when you purchase a policy, even on an individual basis, it’s usually sometimes you pay the premium. And you might not get the policy for some time, months later.

Insurance– So for businesses, and this is not happening as frequently as it used to, it still does. So the risk management department they get the policies in place, and everyone exhales. And they don’t have to worry about this for another nine months. Right.

Yeah. And then, between now and that nine months, a loss occurs. And they don’t have a copy of policy. Right. And the reason why it’s important people say, well, our policy is all the same. No, they’re not. Plus, there are endorsements, there are writers, all sorts of things that are negotiated by businesses, right. So if you don’t have the policy in its entirety on hand, at the time of a loss, it’s a struggle, right. In effect, you don’t actually know what coverage you have, until you have the policy and have gotten through it. Like you said, the exclusions, the writers, that sort of thing. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had a client after they reviewed the policy after. Right. So there’s a lawsuit. We’ll look at.

“How did they get in there? It’s first time I’ve seen this.”

And that is not a best practice. That is. That is not that’s

for sure. Right. So we’ve talked about the notice that goes to the carrier. So then the next thing on managing the claim, is, well, there’s still things going on that the company should be doing. One, is ensuring that they don’t make a mistake, again, losses aren’t necessarily mistakes. And doing what you can to minimize future losses. And mitigate the damage from this particular loss. Right. We don’t just willy-nilly let it keep going on. You’re gonna get dinged for that too. Yes. Yeah, for sure. Are there, again, is there a best practice in your mind, a loss happens, do you then have a plan or put something in plan to stop a similar loss from happening in the future? Or is there anything specific? Are we just sort of reviewing our business practices to try to tighten things up? Well, it’s a little bit of both. But if you’re not doing something to try to prevent the same thing from happening again. That’s lousy. Right? So

yes, the first– Well, it’s kind of an ongoing thing. But yeah, as you’re managing the claim, you’re also looking at other areas and saying, We don’t want to repeat of this. What can we do to minimize having this type of loss again? And to answer your other question that you had asked a few minutes ago? Yeah, there are all sorts of different programs available to try to

better your risk management.

Brokers love to have these types of presentations all the time or go to a nice restaurant, invite the

Risk Management Director and then put on a presentation. And so you learn a lot through there. There’s an entity called RIMS, which I think every risk management group probably belongs to.


and some Law Firms also put on workshops and seminars for us. That makes sense. So let’s kind of keep going in the process. We’ve noticed the claim or noticed a potential claim of the loss. At the time, it turns into a claim. What do we follow that notice up with do we actually follow up with the claim to the insurance company? How does that process work and what is the best practice there? Well, what will happen is, so if, if your notice of loss is a lawsuit.

Hmm, with the notice of the claim is sent with a copy of the complaint. Right? That seems obvious.

If it’s just a notice of a potential claim, I think you just leave it at that. And there are reasons why you had to do that, depending on your policy, if it’s a claims made policy. Got it. So, there are different types of durations with policies.

The standard general liability policy it’s what we call Occurrence Based. So if there’s an occurrence during that policy period, right, then it’s that policy that would be liable for the loss. Got it. And let’s say it’s a Bodily Injury claim. In Arizona, there’s a two-year statute of limitations for BI claims, right. So let’s say that the lawsuit doesn’t come until, you know, the one day before the end of the two years, it’s still that policy back at the time of the loss got that applies. That’s who gets put on notice, is that carrier, right? And you might be on your second or third different policy. Correct. But you’re going back in time, right, right. Okay.

In comparison, a claims-made policy.

Those are typically

business policies like a Director and Officer liability policy, Professional Malpractice policy, those types of things, Pollution Liability policies, okay. What happens there is that that policy covers just the risk during that year.

And if there’s a loss during that year, but the claim isn’t made until year two, okay. And it’s with a different carrier and it’s claims made, it’s that policy year two that would apply, your guns off the hook. Sometimes, they have 90-day extension periods.

And there’s also we do this all the time, too. There’s a battle of, well, it was a claim, and you should have put carrier carrier on, on the claim, of course, yeah. So a lot of ways for the insurance company to avoid paying you the coverage that they owe you Right? Or get it that hey, but for the insured, the policyholder, that’s where you especially melt any loss, but especially big loss, you can’t just assume that it’s not a claim. Right? And you’re damned if you do damned if you don’t put carrier a year one on notice of the claim, the claim gets asserted, and year to year, two cases, we already put them on notice. Right, you put them on those don’t talk to me.

Stay with them. Right. That’s, uh, yeah, it’s treacherous. So it seems part of the Risk Management Department’s job should be to know, do we have a an occurrence base? Do we have a claim space policy? And what are our procedures for each? Correct? Right? Yeah. Okay. And then that’s a huge part of the, you know, presentation of the claim. So let’s talk about you’ve made the claim, you’ve presented it to the insurance company, and they come back and want more information, what do you do? And what are your steps? Because I know, at least the folks that I speak with, they’re often hesitant as well, they’re either hesitant to speak to the insurance company, or they just, you know, talk to the insurance company, like a best friend and put themselves in a bad position either way, what’s the best practice there? Well, for a company, especially of any size,

the Risk Management Department, if it’s gone into a lawsuit, their risk management is done with communicating with the insurance company, it goes over to in-house legal or outside legal, and I would presume that those people would not be offering

information that is just volunteering stuff. Sure. If it’s, you put them on notice of the claim, there’s no lawsuit yet, it’s still probably going to be with the risk management folks, at least initially. And I mean, the best practices to say very little,

provide them with updates, when updates are appropriate. They asked for information, you should run it by your in-house legal department, just make sure that you’re not doing something that is going to jeopardize coverage. Right. Okay. And when we’re doing all of that that’s sort of the you know, we’ve talked about the we ensure that our risk management is mature or we try to ensure the maturity of our risk management process. You can still run into problems, though right and what do you do you know, you doing everything you should and the carrier just won’t won’t pay out? They won’t do what they should. Is there a way to management is there ways that you found that you can

sort of cajole a carrier into giving coverage without having to turn around and so on. So the answer is, how big is your company? Yeah. If you’re Amazon, and you’re getting jerked around, pardon my French, by a claims adjuster, somebody at Amazon is going to call the fourth person over a supervisor. Right? Amazon’s 500-pound gorilla in that relationship. Yeah. And quite likely would be able to get it resolved their price off insurance, that might be a bad example. Right. But it’s, you get the point well made. Yeah. If you’re medium-sized, a small size company, and you don’t really have leverage,

the best thing that you can do is if the claims adjuster has either said, Hey, we’re not going to accept this one, or is stalling as to speak with that person’s supervisor. Yeah.

That may not get you anywhere, but at least, you know, kind of going up the chain going up the chain. Yeah.

At that point, if that is a dead end, and you have nowhere else to go,

you either simultaneously with what you’ve done, or at that point, contact your favorite insurance coverage lawyer.

Yeah, what we do at that point is, we do it every day, you know this. We write what’s called a Hammer Letter. It sounds mean, but it’s not going to be sometimes.

And we are the advocate for the policyholder. We’ve reviewed the policy, we’ve reviewed the loss.

And not we don’t do this for every single claim because some claims just aren’t insurable. Yeah, yeah. It’s the bad claim. That is,

what are you gonna do? Right? Insurance is supposed to cover fortuitous loss, right?

Not you ramming into somebody because you’re angry.

So on those claims that we feel are valid, and justify, further follow up or write a letter to the insurance carrier, right. It’s usually given a little bit of

some credibility because they know that they might get sued. Yeah.

We also have on our letterhead at FR Law Group construction at policyholder lawyers writes, all we do. Yeah. And, yeah, so and then we were talking about this earlier today, we’ve got a footer on the bottom of her letters, that basically says,

You can’t be mean to policyholders. You owe them a duty of good faith and fair dealing. That’s right. And then we cite to this

seminal case here in Arizona, Rollins vs. APA DACA. Right, we started doing that because the some of the insurance companies, when they write to either our client or to last, they have a footer on every bottom of the page that says it’s a crime to

fraudulently report, right. For an insurance claim. Right. It’s almost like you’re being accused of fraud. Right from the get right. Yeah, right. Hey, you making sure you’re scared? I know, right? Trying to get you to go away somewhere. The other so we started with our footer, just as I thought it was funny at the time. But no, I like it. Yeah. You know, it’s good to let the insurance company know someone’s advocating for this client. They’re serious about it. Yeah. It’s not just, you know, client that has a claim once every five years. It’s people that do it every day. Yeah. And I think were those letters to be effective. You need to cite to case law. Yeah, you need to cite to the provisions of the policy. Right. And the first letter should not be antagonistic. It’s just say, hey, we’d like you to reconsider this for the following reasons. Right. And usually, if the tenor is polite, in the letter is very strong in terms of its merits, it should warrant reconsideration. Right. And most likely an acceptance of the claim, right? Yeah, that’s, you know, that’s what we tell people. That’s the home run for us. If we can write that letter and get the acceptance that’s, that’s a good result for everybody. So Well, the problem is that with

looking at how you manage a claim, we’re talking about it from the perspective of the policyholder and their policyholder’s lawyer. There’s an entirely different perspective

on the insurance company side, right.

The rule of thumb used to be that you would read the policy, you’d look at the claim, and you try to see if there’s a way to fit that claim. In

into the policy to coverage. Yeah, right. That’s not what is done. Yeah. And we’ve talked about this before, but the portion of the policy that provides coverage is what’s called the Insuring Agreement. The Insuring Agreement is no more than a page, usually half a page. Yeah. And the remainder of the policy because everything that excludes what was covered in the insuring agreement. Right. And so

what make this brief what an adjuster will do? They’ll first look at the Insuring Agreement, and they’ll look to see let’s say it’s a general liability policy. They’ll want to see, is it an occurrence? Right occurrence? Is bodily injury or property damage arising as a result of an accident? During the policy period? Well, if they can determine that it’s not a bodily injury, and property damage game over?

They’ll say, Well, there’s no occurrence. If they decide that they do find that it’s an occurrence, then there are numerous exclusions 100 pages of my favorite one is the duty. This is not an exclusion, but they treat it like one Duty to Cooperate. So you pay your premium for insurance coverage, right, and they put into the policy that you have a duty to cooperate with everything that we asked for. And if you don’t cooperate with us, then that may be a waiver of coverage. Right? And so, you know, cooperation is in the eyes of the beholder. That’s right. That’s right. If I paid you on time, every month, right, then pretty wild, right. But if the insurance company asked you to do 100 things,

in response to the claim of loss, can you do 99 and a half? They’re going to say you didn’t cooperate on that, providing them with the other half of the 99th. Right? Yeah, no, it’s important. And you said in the old days, right, they used to look to find coverage. Now, they definitely look to deny coverage.

And that makes presenting the claim having your risk management tight. All the more important. You have to be aware of the game. Yeah. Because all too often, naively. And it’s because they’re thinking logically, the policyholder is thinking that the insurance company is you know, therefore them like a good neighbor.

And they find out that it’s not the good neighbors, the neighbor from hell, right? The person who this entity that said that they’ve got your back stabs you in the back, right? Yeah, I’m a policyholder lawyer. So I’m a little biased. Sure. But all too often, the policyholder thinks, oh, they’re gonna cover this. I’m gonna pay my premium right? Then a good policyholder for 30 years. That’s right. Yeah, that’s right. I’m in here for 30 years, I paying them on time, every year, one thing they’re going to do right by me. And that’s not always the case. You really have to advocate for yourself in the claims process. Yeah. And some insurance companies are better than others. Sure. Like anything, anything in life? They are? Well, it seems like, you know, we’re kind of at the end of presenting an insurance claim. Is there anything you want to end or tell the audience as we close up? No. Nothing other than, it’s really very important.

To document the loss. Yeah.

It memories fade. Yeah. And especially if it’s a large loss, and you’ve got multiple people in your organization who had their fingerprints on trying to deal with it.

Good luck trying to get that out of one person. So the retention the document, the risk management plan, should have a sequence to follow in those visits. And there should be one person. Yeah. The key contact who everything goes to everything flows through that contact. And yeah, that’s great. Well, thank you. Thank you. I think it’s been great today, everybody listening, we appreciate you and invite you to visit our website Reach out if you have any questions like Troy said, make sure you have your Risk Management Plan in place of trained and that you’ve gone over things that makes the inevitable claim all that much easier, and helps you get to an accepted coverage. So we appreciate listening today and look forward to Episode Eight.